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Raoul Clermont de Nesle (abt. 1242 - 1302)

Raoul (Raoul II) "Sire de Nesle" Clermont de Nesle
Born about [location unknown]
Ancestors ancestors
Son of and
Brother of and
Husband of — married [date unknown] [location unknown]
Husband of — married 1296 [location unknown]
Descendants descendants
Father of and
Died at about age 60 in Kortrijk (Courtrai), , West-Vlaanderen, Belgiummap
Problems/Questions Profile managers: John Atkinson private message [send private message], Isabelle Huth private message [send private message], and Bettye Carroll private message [send private message]
Profile last modified | Created 19 Apr 2011
This page has been accessed 1,048 times.

Contents

Biography

This person was created by Anton Bergh through the import of ReedevanOudtshoornAdrianaSophiavan.ged on 19 April 2011.

Raoul was the son of Simon II de Clermont and Alix Adela de Montfort. He was firstly married to Alix de Dreux (daughter of Robert de Dreux and Clémence de Châteaudun). He was secondly married to Isabelle de Hainaut (daughter of Jean de Hainaut and Philippa de Luxembourg). He passed away in 1302 at the battle of Courtrai.

Name

Name: Raoul II de /Clermont de Nesle/ Heer van Nesle en de Bries
Given Name: Raoul II de
Surname: Clermont de Nesle

Event

Event: Nesle
Type: Property
Event: Châteaudun
Type: Property

Occupation

Occupation: heer van Nesle
Occupation: Vicomte
Occupation: Seigneur
Occupation: Connétable

Notes

Profession : Seigneur de Nesle en Picardie, Vicomte de Châteaudun,
Connétable de France.
Raoul II de Clermont (+1302)
Seigneur de Nesles et de Briois
Connétable de France (1277)
Gesveuveld in de Guldensporenslag (11-7 1311).

Sources

Acknowledgements

This person was created through the import of Bwiki.ged on 03 April 2011. The following data was included in the gedcom.





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Comments: 12

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Atkinson-107 John Atkinson
Clermont de Nesle-1 and Clermont-8 appear to represent the same person because: Both married to Isabelle d'Avesnes and both Sire de Nesle, Clermont is the preferred LNAB, please merge into that profile.
posted on Clermont-8 (merged) by John Atkinson
Atkinson-107 John Atkinson
Why was this comment ignored, or at least discussed if the alternative LNAB was to be used?
posted by John Atkinson
Marchal-178 Isabelle (Marchal) Huth
Oh sorry John. I think Clermont is the correct LNAB. What do other managers think?
posted by Isabelle (Marchal) Huth
Bergh-3 Anton Eugene Bergh
I think it’s probably wise to refer to the medieval project leaders or to G2G or to do one’s own research when in doubt about the final surname. Here Johan (of medieval project) gave some clear advice about the end surname which was ignored. I’m not sure why; but let’s all endeavor to take more care in future, enter into lively discussion so we can achieve excellent results and let’s be more responsive to comments in future. Just do our best. In this case, I guess, Isabelle,, just go ahead with sorting out the surname change to Clermont. And hopefully no ill feeling. We’re all supportive here! Thanks 😃
posted by Anton Eugene Bergh
edited by Anton Eugene Bergh
Marchal-178 Isabelle (Marchal) Huth
Hi Anton, and thank you! :-)

According to the book "Moreri, Louis, Mgr. Le grand dictionnaire historique, ou Le mélange curieux de l'histoire sacrée et profane. Tome 5, nouvelle édition. HAI, p491. Libraires associés, 1759." and Medieval Lands, he is called "Raoul de Clermont, seigneur de Nesle". I know sometimes he is called Raoul II de Clermont-Nesle (like his wikipedia french page). For me, the correct LNAB should be Clermont (and the current last name de Clermont-Nesle). What do you all think? ;-)

posted by Isabelle (Marchal) Huth
Atkinson-107 John Atkinson
My apologies if my original comment came across as a upset. A book I have Les Capetiens by Patrick van Kerrebrouck, (which I need to add as a source) refers to him as Raoul de Clermont, II du nom, sire de Nesle, etc, on p. 327 and cites a couple of primary sources where he is referred to as "Raous de Clermont" and "Raouls de Clermont" (spelling varied a lot in this medieval time period) in Notes on p. 331

Given we are using the name without the 'de' for the LNAB, I would suggest Clermont is the correct name to use, with 'de Clermont' as the Current Last Name.

I could be totally wrong, but I have this idea that appending the place as part of the surname as in Clermont-Nesle, or Clermont de Nesle, was being used in a later time period?

Charles Cawley in Medieval Lands also refers to him as Raoul de Clermont https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/parclerdam.htm#RaoulIIIClermontdied1302

posted by John Atkinson
edited by John Atkinson
Marchal-178 Isabelle (Marchal) Huth
John you are certainly right for the surname Clermont-Nesle. Anyway, I agree with you for the LNAB and current last name. ;-)
posted by Isabelle (Marchal) Huth
Bergh-3 Anton Eugene Bergh
Hmm, so it sounds like John is suggesting LNAB: Clermont and current LN: de Clermont, and suggests to leave the place of origin out of it, so don't include Nesle or de Nesle; as including the place name only became common in a later era.
posted by Anton Eugene Bergh
Atkinson-107 John Atkinson
Clermont-60 and Clermont-8 appear to represent the same person because: Isabelle d'Avesnes or de Hainaut, is the second wife of Raoul de Clermont as indicated on the biographies of both Clermont-60 and Clermont-8 Please merge these two profiles.
posted on Clermont-8 (merged) by John Atkinson
Atkinson-107 John Atkinson
Clermont-60 and Clermont de Nesle-1 are not ready to be merged because: There appears to be a third profile for this person - Clermont-8 and as that is the lower number with the correct name, both of these profiles need to be merged into that one, otherwise we end up with the Multiple Redirects Problem https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Help:Project_Protecting_and_Merging#Background:_The_multiple_redirects_problem
posted by John Atkinson
Williams-28514 Cindy (Williams) Lesure
Clermont de Nesle-1 and Clermont-8 are not ready to be merged because: More research and someone able to do editing on profiles from 1300's. :)
posted on Clermont-8 (merged) by Cindy (Williams) Lesure
Holland-3338 Bettye (Holland) Carroll
Clermont de Nesle-1 and Clermont-8 appear to represent the same person because: Thank you for doing this merge, and making WikiTree more accurate!
-)
posted on Clermont-8 (merged) by Bettye (Holland) Carroll

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